This time Gordon Buchanan’s talking with Lesle Jansen to discuss how resource rights are also human rights. Lesle’s background working with prison inmates in South Africa post-apartheid sparked a career in international law and her continued work to defend the rights of indigenous communities to use and exploit their own resources. She shares her personal story and fascinating insights into why she believes conservation needs to shift from being militaristic in practise to becoming people-centred and rights-based.